A Little Player/Former Wiz Discussion.

[Rynoah]

All right. After the recent bout of resignations, a few of the players and (now former) wizstaff got together to discuss the events. It was concluded that the players should speak out to Timon about the injustice of how the wizstaff have been treated. We don't think it's fair that the wizzes have been kept from doing their jobs, and in doing so been alienated and forced to such a point that they don't feel this is a fun place to be anymore. Player would like to see this fixed. Now. Below is the log of the discussion. Players and wizstaff brought up some good points and solutions, and I think it's a good idea for all involved to read it.

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Yaro says, "Now. I'm the *last* person to take charge. I don't want anyone to look at me and say I'm trying to fix the MUCK or lead us all or crap like that. Okay? ut I think we need to decide what to do... actually *do* and then *do* it. I'm tired of these talks, they get nowhere unless we can make a final decision right here right now what we gotta do. Let's allow for a few minutes to gather more players, then we can start."

Yaro says, "First off. Who wants to moderate this little meeting?"

You say, "Moderate how? As in act as the betweener?"

Minim says, " I will, Yar."

Yaro says, "Sorry, Min. I think it should be the person present *least* involved in what could be the problems."

[OOC] Minim says, "So be it. Anyone?"

Yaro says, "I'd say Kuchwa or Shahidi could."

You say, "Then it should be someone nominated by both sides of the problem, not a volunteer."

Yaro says, "Agreed."

Kuchwa says, "Well I have very little idea of what's going on, sooo, I'm happy to help."

You say, "So far there's Kuchwa or Shahidi being nominated. Anyone else?"

Shahidi says, "Wait what?"

Shahidi says, "What do you want me to do?"

Zazu says, "I have a feeling that if something gets to the point it needs a moderator, it's too late for the
meeting to be useful."

Yaro says, "I just wanted this meeting so we could decide with minimal discussion what we need to do and get it
done as fast as we can."

Chukizo says, "I will warn you against rushing things. Rushed things never come out well."

Akase says, "Thanks for the summon, Ajazi."

You say, "I disagree, Zazu. I think it's already reached this point. We've got players concerned that they're
being blamed for the downfall of the MUCK and wizards unhappy with their jobs."

Yaro says, "I know, Chuki. But so far, taking our time has proven to be... detrimental to what we need done."

Ajazi says, "No prob, Akase."

Kuchwa says, "Okay, first off...What EXACTLY is the problem?"

Ajazi says, "And Yaro, that's inaccurate. The problem has been a complete lack of productive responsiveness from
the MUCK's higher-ups."

Kuchwa says, "I knew the problem on ER. I had to deal with Ed firsthand and in the end I...well, it doesn't
matter. Point is, I knew what happened there, but I don't know what's been happening here."

Yaro says, "Either way Ajazi: Time progressed, things got worse. Inactivity did contribute, but if we wait for
more decisions, even worse crap will happen."

Kuchwa quietly wishes for name colors to break up the posts. -.-

Yaro says, "First off, I'd like to rule Ed out as an unhelpful example of what not to do. I'm not sure if we used him as an example of how not to run this MUCK or not, but I think talking about him will accomplish nothing."

You say, "Right. Ed isn't here, he has nothing to do with KaV. Bringing him up is a bit pointless."

Chukizo says, "That, and comparing wizards on KaV to wizards on ER is just insulting. *eyes anon post*"

Kuchwa says, "Was just saying that I knew what happened on ER, but I have no idea what's going on here."

Yaro says, "I understand."

Ajazi says, "I will explain what's going on here."

Ajazi says, "So please give me a moment to type it up - I'll try to be as third-person as I can be."

[OOC] You say, "BRB in a moment."

Zazu is busily reading the forum.

Yaro says, "By all means, Ajazi."

Ajazi says, "I'll recap the most recent problem."

Ajazi says, "The more active wizzes - me, Chisu, Chuki, Fujo, Bahati, and Kiniro - have all been highly frustrated with the way things have been going on KaV. The MUCK as we see it is a more or less rule-less entity, which is NOT how such things should be run. Bahati resigned. Not ten minutes later I sat down at the computer and started typing up rules for the MUCK that were more or less standard with all MU*s around, along with input from each of the aforementioned wizzes if/as they became available, along with others. Asrohc was called in to modify a few programs so we could offer a minor punishment to those who abused the new rules - such as channel bannings, etc. This was wrong of us to do without asking Timon, and we very well know it."

Ajazi says, "-since they were his programs."

Yaro says, "The program modifications I would leave as something more between you and the owner of the program."

Ajazi says, "He balked at the new ruleset, which the majority of wizstaff had collaborated on and debated for a total of twelve hours. They were completely revised several times during the course of that time, and at least twice more afterwards by Bahati and Timon. That was fine. Okay. Makes sense. Timon then posted multiple new 'wizard rules' that restricted us further."

Idredh'Reo is talking with someone outside who made a good point. KaV has the same wizzes as ER did, all they did was get ride of Ed. They should of thought things over better before saying, 'if we get ride of Ed things will be KaV has the same wizzes as ER did, all they did was get ride of Ed. They should of thought things over better before saying, 'if we get ride of Ed things will be better.'

Ajazi shushes people.

You say, "Let Ajazi speak, guys."

Chukizo says, "We agreed to leave Ed out of this, Reo. And yes. Let Ajazi finish."

Yaro says, "Reo. You'll get a chance."

Zazu says, "Things were a lot better for a couple of months."

Ajazi says, "More recently, there were issues with a player that shall remain unnamed about the subject of TS, though he/she did not break any actual rules. The majority of the wizstaff again agreed that he/she should be talked to, and Kiniro took initiative and did just that. The conversation went fine, and we thought that would be the end of it."

Ajazi says, "Kiniro reported the success of the player/wizard conversation on the boards and all hell broke loose with Timon and Gituku, who ended up attacking Kiniro. The rest of us were not amused. Gituku seems to have been, in hindsight, more in search of information than anything else because of his lack of attendance on KaV - but even he admits he did it in a way that was not exactly nice. Timon's problem was that Kiniro had violated his new 'period of grace' rule, which she had not. Kiniro felt abused because of this, and subsequently left the MUCK for several days to think it over. She has since decided KaV not worth the grief. And that brings us up to where we are now."

Ajazi says, "If any of the other wizzes would like to correct me, they're welcome to."

You say, "Thanks, Ajazi. That clears up a little confusion."

Yaro says, "May I ask a question?"

You say, "Go for it, Yaro."

Yaro says, "Perhaps it would be wise for those attending (myself included) that you define this 'period of grace'
rule."

Chukizo says, "A time period on the staff forum before action is taken on an idea or issue so that wizards have a chance to weigh in."

Chukizo says, "The grace period was different for different issues, depending on their urgency."

Ajazi says, "The 'period of grace' was basically just a period of time in which the wizstaff would wait before
implementing anything."

You say, "Are there any more questions on recent events?"

Idredh'Reo says, "How did Kini violated this rule."

Yaro says, "And how urgent would the 'period of grace' for the aforementioned TS issue be? Just so I can surmise a possiility over how Timon could have responded as such."

Chukizo says, "She did not."

Idredh'Reo says, "Then why did Timmy atatck Kini?"

Ajazi says, "Seven days - she waited nine, I think?"

Chukizo says, "That sounds right, Ajazi."

Yaro says, "Can ou date her post exactly?"

Chukizo says, "The last post on the issue thread was Feb 8th."

Chukizo says, "She posted the log of her conversation on the 15th."

Chukizo says, "Wait.. that first thread.. the issue, was started Feb 6th."

Yaro says, "Uh... you're not 100% certain? Is the post still on the forums?"

Chukizo says, "So 10 days. And yes, Yaro, it is."

Yaro says, "Just being sure."

You say, "I think she means that the thread was started on the 6th, the last response by wizards was on the 8th, and the log of the conversation was posted on the 15th."

Chukizo says, "I am certain. The issue thread was posted on Feb 6th. The thread with the log was posted on Feb 15th."

Chukizo says, "Yes, Adili. That is it."

Yaro says, "Okay... Kiniro easily met the requirements of the 'grace period' rule."

You say, "So it would seem Timon's attack was unwarranted."

Yaro says, "Indeed. If I may make the recommendation on this?"

You say, "Go ahead."

Ajazi says, "It will make no difference, Kiniro is already gone. She doesn't /want/ to come back"

Yaro says, "I know she doesn't. But that does not mean we ignore Timon's act."

You say, "True, but I think it's just an effort to salvage the MUCK, not a play to get her back."

Idredh'Reo agrees with Adili.

Ajazi says, "Guys, I'd just like to point something out. On ANY MU* EVER, the headwiz should = god. End of story."

Minim says, " I agree with this."

Kuchwa says, "Why?"

Yaro says, "I'm not so sure I agree. As a headwiz myself, I want my wizstaff to reprimand me for doing something
wrong."

Ajazi says, "That has created a problem here in that Timon continually claims to /not/ be a headwiz, but still exercises the power of one, which is part of the resentment. And Kuchwa, it's just the way things are done and have been done."

Idredh'Reo disagrees, the head wiz has the power... But that doesn't mean his opinios are the best.

Ajazi says, "Staff reprimands are all well and good, but they don't have the power to change the headwiz's actions if he/she doesn't want them changed."

Yaro says, "I would recommend the staff have the player speak to Timon."

Kuchwa says, "I know we didn't want to compare anything to Ed, but he IS a good example of "supreme power". It didnt' matter what anyone else thought. Since he ruled, what HE thought was all that mattered."

Akase asks, "So, what can we all do to fix this problem before it grows any worse?"

Eos generally prefers the model of a fairly inactive head-wiz whom only presents judgment on large issues, and delegates the rest to his/her staff.

[OOC] Minim says, "Let's stay focused on that question."

Chukizo says, "That was what Timon was supposed to do originally, Eos."

Ajazi says, "The problem with that, Kuchwa, is that Ed was constantly hopped up on absinthe and who knows WHAT else. Sanity did not enter into the equation. :\"

Idredh'Reo nods, "We're not talking about wizzes and powers of gods and that... We want KaV to live."

Chukizo says, "But his new rules demanded his input, or at least a chance for it. And he blew up at Kini when she obeyed his rules because he was not fast enough to weigh in - because he was inactive."

Kuchwa says, "His state of intoxication isn't the point."

Yaro says, "I think what we need to do is approach Timon *tactfully.* Maybe a wizard and a couple of concerned players. And I'd also bring along *anonymously* the player in question of the TS thing to tell Timon how it went."

You say, "I suppose the players could attempt to reason with Timon on the subject, but really, he has the last say in everything, apparently."

Ajazi says, "You asked me about the topic of supreme headwiz power. A stable headwiz wouldn't be a problem."

Yaro says, "Agreed. But wishing for a stable headwiz and trying to correct Timon are two different means."

Eos came in late to this discussion. Don't mind her.

Yaro says, "Perhaps someone on more equal footing with him ElseMU* would stand a better chance of making the difference?"

[OOC] You say, "I don't think anyone here knows him elseMU*"

Ajazi says, "All I'm saying is that it's clearly his MUCK, and he can run it the way he wants. I don't think much of the wizstaff really cares any more, sadly."

Kuchwa says, "Has he been alerted to what his behavior is causing in his muck?"

You say, "So even if KaV got back on its feet, we'd be out some wizstaff and perhaps a few players as well."

Yaro says, "Think maybe the wizstaff not caring could be contributing to our problems? And I know him ElseMU*."

Zazu is ready to care, but it looks like it's probably too late.

Ajazi says, "The wizstaff doesn't care because Timon has made it impossible for us to FIX anything."

Yaro says, "I don't think we'll 100% prevent players from leaving the MUCK. But I'd rather save it."

Eos chuckles... "Sounds simular to the problems AT faced before we became SR."

Ajazi says, "Kuchwa, the current and unfortunate nastiness on the wizboard should have made it completely clear to Timon. If it hasn't, then I don't know WHAT's going on."

Kuchwa says, "You know, drama may have ripped ER apart, but I had a LOT of good RP there, and more non-lion RP than I could have hoped for on a TLK muck."

Kuchwa says, "It may not have lasted long but they had the right idea somehow for a while there."

Chukizo says, "ER was a great place in the beginning. I don't think anyone is denying that fact. But this is not ER."

Yaro says, "I think we need less wizards confronting Timon and more players doing so."

You say, "Amen."

You say, "To Chuki's statement."

You say, "And if Timon is a player-driven wiz, then that would work, Yaro."

Ajazi says, "He seems to want to be more buddy-buddy with the players than a wiz. Which is another problem - not that he's friendly, but that he won't DO anything."

Yaro says, "So... we need players. And so far, despite our problems, I can name a few good players off the top of my head that could readily confront Timon and tell him he did something wrong."

Yaro says, "That can also be approached by players."

You say, "But would he listen to the players even if they /told/ him they want a working wizstaff?"

Zazu says, "He would."

Idredh'Reo says, "If he wants KaV to continue, he should."

Yaro says, "I believe he would."

You say, "Then I suggest someone make a post on the forum, or send him a MUCKmail."

[OOC] Minim says, "There's no doubt in my mind he would."

Chukizo says, "Why not log this and post it?"

Yaro says, "I'll page Timon if everyone wants me to?"

Adili can do that.

Adili is now logging.

Yaro says, "I dunno if he'd respond well to a forum post. Sometimes the best way through is in the mud."

Chukizo says, "I doubt paging will work. He is 2 days idle."

Chukizo says, "He will want a record of what was said here."

You say, "If we post on the forum, however, we can get others to weigh in on the issue."

Kuchwa says, "That was my biggest beef with him back on ER. He was always idle for days."

You say, "The more opinions we have, the better a discussion it will be."

Yaro says, "Okay. I guess a post. But I'll try paging him anyway, since he's responded relatively quickly to my pages."

Minim pages, "Are you logging everything that has been said thus far, or only from when you said you were logging untill now?" to you.

You say, "I've got everything logged, from the stuff before I started to now."

Yaro says, "So. That's one decision made. I would like to call it progress. (Opimism helps.)"

Ajazi says, "Heh."

[OOC] Yaro says, "Optimism even."

Adili read that as 'opium'. XD

Yaro says, "I never inhaled."

Kuchwa says, "I know this may not be entirely productive concerning the issue at hand, but if people just need a break but still want their RP fix, there are some other mucks out there that have the whole "talking animal" style."

Ajazi says, "Opium totally helps."

Kuchwa says, "Hey now...just say no to drugs."

You say, "Let's just focus on fixing this first, Kuchwa."

Idredh'Reo tries to say no...

Yaro says, "Yes. There are plenty of other MUCKs. If a break is what is needed, then perhaps that's what we'd need. But to be honest, we'd face these plagues when we get back. So, what was another issue?"

Kuchwa nods, and was just seeing all the forum posts about "i dont' RP here anymore" and thought she'd toss it out there for a way for folks to get the juices flowing again.

Kuchwa says, "It is easier to tackle a problem with a clear head."

Kuchwa says, "Stepping away from it and approaching it anew, etc."

Ajazi says, "Kuchwa, I try to RP here, but find it almost impossible. However, I DO RP on at least three other MU*s."

Kuchwa says, "But anyway..."

Kuchwa says, "I've noticed that it's very hard to get people interested in RP that doesn't focus around the main cliques."

Minim says, " We aren't suggesting a MUCK-wide hiatus, are we?"

Kuchwa says, "No."

Kuchwa says, "I like it here, I just can't seem to ever find play for my other chars."

You say, "Damn it all. ><"

Ajazi pets Adili. D:

Idredh'Reo hugs Adili on Sono's behalf.

[OOC] You say, "I missed anything after Kuchwa said she can't find play for her other characters."

[ Idredh'Reo ] (Ajazi says, "You can RP with me in my dark corner if you like.")

Yaro says, "I know I'll face a bit of disagrement, but the more time we tak to solve the problems, the more opportunity the problems have to develop into a nasty gorey mess that we can't work with. That's how it got this far."

Idredh'Reo says, "That's about it."

You say, "Thanks, REo."

Idredh'Reo says, "It's ok."

You say, "Were there any other issues to bring up that might benefit from some discussion?"

Ajazi says, "Honestly, Timon doesn't let the wizzes wiz. That is the problem. I see no indication that it will change."

[OOC] Minim says, "I beg all of your pardon, but I am going to excuse my self on reasons I don't feel relevent to the topics at hand. I just want all of you to know I am loyal to KaV and any and all discions it makes. I hope to meet you all on a more cheery and lighter day, until then, good night."

You say, "Good night, Minim."

Ajazi says, "Night, Minim."

Idredh'Reo says, "NIght man"

Yaro says, "I'm sure there's plenty. Like I think in the interest of player/wizard tension, we could get the wizzards and players... in some form of synergy with each other."

You say, "That's what the log-posting will be about, Ajazi. It might not help, but it's worth at least a shot."

You say, "How do you suggest we go about that, Yaro?"

Idredh'Reo for some reason die dna is below Adili's paws. ._.

Yaro says, "While it is important the wizards do their jobs on things, I'm thinking maybe the wizards and players could more actively discuss issues and come to a better conclusion of how the playerbase and wizards would wants things to be. I think we could have prevented a lot of our problems by just getting the players more involved in... deciding what they want the MUCK to be like. And then compromises and such to make sure groups of players and the wizards meet each other in the middle. Not everyone is happy, but it brings about a better harmony. I'm afraid I see too many decisions being made by players *and* wizards that made things nasty (Like my own @group, the ongiong debate over realism: Sticks vs. No-Sticks.) and that they couldn't agre on. Okay. Let me rephrase this: I think wizards and players need to compromise with each other... a *lot* more. I'll say it now: If the wizstaff decides my meerkittehs shouldn't have spears, I won't fight it. It's a sacrifice I would like to make to get things running smooth again. Whether the rest of my @group agrees, I dunno. I can bring it up to them if you wish. But bottom line, EVERYONE: We need to get less orders and defiance going and more... democracy."

Yaro says, "Hell, while I'm at it. Tell me what *I* need to do to change and I'll do my best."

Shahidi says, "Keep in mind we were rushed into this."

You say, "So you're saying that it would be better to have more player/wizstaff interaction, which I think would work well. It seems that when things happen, much of the playerbase is in the dark because the issues happened behind curtains."

Kuchwa always leans toward realism, but is typically disagreed with. -.-

Yaro says, "Which is a concern of mine. A MUCK can't be stable if a wizstaff can't take care of itself and pull together. Whatever is happening behind the curtains, I'd hate to ask you guys to have the players decide it, but if it's going to affect them, I might think a lot of these issues would begin to concern them. No matter how... internal... they may seem."

Ajazi says, "Please keep in mind that Chuki and I have just handed in our resignations. We're here as third party players more than anything right now."

Chukizo says, "Yes. And I am going to sleep. XD"

You say, "G'night, Chuki. <3"

Ajazi <3

Yaro says, "All these resignations seem to only make the problems more apparent that thinggs are not doing well. If you resign, which *is* your choice, you only send a message to the players that you're giving up. I'm not going to say you are... but it's... not good."

Idredh'Reo says, "NIghty:"

Ajazi says, "I am giving up, actually. xD I'm only remaining on KaV to attempt to squeeze out the last bits of RP I can."

You say, "But at the same time, no one wants you to stay in a job you don't like."
Eos is on KaV for the meantime... SunRise muck has most of her attention as of late however - it's about back up and running once more.


Yaro says, "...."

Ajazi says, "What, Yaro?"

Chukizo says, "It may appear that I am giving up. But I have done so much for this place. It is someone else's turn. I heard a rumor that you were after my spot on the staff, Yaro. So go for it. Good luck."

Akase says, "I just want to thank both Chukizo and Ajazi for all they have done."

Chukizo says, "Thanks, Akase."

Ajazi says, "Thank you, Akase. It really means a lot, and I'm not being snarky. <3"

You say, "As much as I hate, hate, hate to see the wizstaff go, I'm not gonna ask them to stay. They've done so much and almost beaten themselves to death trying to work this out."

Chukizo says, "It does. <3<3 Getting thanked is awesome."

Yaro says, "Thanks, Chuki... and Ajazi... and all the staff. But now it looks hopeless even to me,"

Ajazi says, "Yaro, if Timon, Gituku, etc. actually get on and DO stuff, then the situation is not hopeless."

You say, "Right. If they'll listen to the playerbase, then maybe this MUCK can be saved."

Chukizo says, "Okay, kids. I am going to bed so I can teach chilluns in the morning. <3 Night."

Ajazi says, "Night, Chuki."

Zazu says, "Good night, Chukizo."

Chukizo has disconnected.

You say, "If there's nothing else to discuss, I'm going to clean up this log and post it."

Ajazi says, "We could discuss the weather. Or, if we dare, we could even /RP/ on the grid, as unthinkable as it sounds."

Yaro says, "I do. I RP everywhere I can."

Eos is scheming a hostile takeover. The Cubbehs shall rule!

Idredh'Reo says, "Cubbehs, not you."

Eos will be exempt from that of course. ;P

Adili has lost the desire to RP any more tonight. ><

Kuchwa says, " -.-"

You say, "I'm gonna post this, then."

[Rynoah]

And now I'll add my own two cents:

Guys, sticking our heads in the sand and hoping this will go away isn't going to get anything done. Something has got to change here if we want this game to survive. I don't want to point fingers at any one person, because that gets nowhere. We all need to work together. We've already had many extremely useful, talented, and fine people leave because of this mess, and it has got to stop. It's gotten to the point where even I am considering abandoning ship because dealing with all this drama is really not worth the effort.

But see, that isn't going to accomplish anything either. I'm willing to at least make an effort to put this back together, but we're going to need cooperation on both sides.

[Zazu]

I've just held a meeting with nine people looking to save the MUCK. I may be posting the log of it somewhere; in any case, I'll go around the forum now and report our decisions for general discussion. So, well, all I'm trying to say is, don't lose hope. KaV is probably gonna stick around. It's a good place, at heart, honest!

[Nyigakali]

Please don't make any representation that "the players" say or do this or that. You aren't speaking for all players. I'm not 100% certain on the specifics of this stuff ... for instance, does any of this have to do with that incident a few weeks ago when a wizard popped onto the MAT channel to complain that the MAT channel was too rule-less and adult? Because I'm with Timon on that ... the MAT channel is a place for those of us who like to engage in chat really inappropriate for anywhere else on the MU* can go.

There are some players who persistently page about TS and such, but (unlike Jay) know no means no and haven't violated consent, at least with me, when I wasn't in the mood.

My big complaint are FC players who don't log their FCs on. This is one thing I see and have no doubt is causing serious harm on the MU*, and its in all groups. My group just lost its active status because, well, its dead. I've been extremely frustrated with Ahadi because I wanted to try to RP some scenes with him but he was never logged on (and how his player has resigned), along with other FC leaders.

If you're searching for a source of problems on a MUCK but you have FCs you don't log on at least once per week (and more than just blipping), the first problem you can do the most to change and improve the MUCK is yourself. If your life is too busy to be able to log a character on regularly, maybe you should consider asking a wiz to hand the FC over to someone else. RL comes first, but that doesn't mean you should be allowed to sign up for some glorious FC position and then not meet the responsibilities that demands.